Is havoc going to be implemented in Alan Wake enemies? if yes how

[Exoskeletor]

i would like to ask the people from remedy if the havok is going to be implemented in alan wake just like the same wa that it was in max payne 2.

Personally, i find it very annoying when i shoot enemies to watch them die like a doll.

A target dies like that ONLY if you shoot him in a special place in the back of his neck (more or less in the middle). this is also the place that snipers love to shoot because its 100% sudden death. This is not happening even when you shoot someone in the heart or in the head, there is always a case that the target will manage to move a part of his body or scream.

It could be a good idea to use havok with a compination of some animations according the place that the target take the shot. (except if he take the shot in the special place on his neck)

You can also use havok without changes in enemy bodies.

[Morry]

Something like that is still a little way off. There was an interview with one of the main animators for Half Life 2 and she said that there will be a stage when character movements are not only physics-related, but AI related. For example, when a character runs around a corner, most of the time, they run in a linear curve or jagged lines. What AI could do is to inform the character to slow down, peek around the corner and then slowly advance. This AI could also be used to blend animations together such as running/walking and yes, dying.
Physics in the game world is the new "lens glare" and it will soon reach a stage where the physical properties of bodies will have to be improved to such a stage where it is almost an exact replica of the human skeletal structure in order to produce life-life effects. Then you have problems such as not dying instantly, dismemberment which pose further challenges.


As for Alan Wake, I expect the same level of detail that we see in any game these days. You kill a monster/person and they will use their "bones" to simulate a falling body.

[Kahr]

I guess this works fine for now. I'm still amazed when I see bodies that rest sitting by a wall (with blood splatter behind it), actually using the surroudings accordingly to how the body ends up. I still remember the games where you could see legs sticking out of the wall, because the rest of the body was INSIDE. They have come a far way, guys. And sooner or later, they WILL advance more. ;)

[Motz]

Havok is a nice engine, however I think it is over used now. I enjoy mild rag doll physics, however it upsets me when I am playing Halo 2 and my body has spasms when I am dead. Still rag doll physics are required now a days.

[clip182]

I can't remember the name of the company but IGN had an article about some new company that had created an awesome physics engine. basically it should how it could be used in games like madden so they wouldn't have to put a motion capture of the 4 or so different tackles that you always seem to see. It takes into account the environment and the direction that your player would be hit and it acts accordingly meaning no more of your player laying the same way or falling the same way everytime. A ton of companies had already signed on but I don't recall Remedy being one of them.

[Kahr]

Why is it so important how bodies fall when they die? I mean, as long as the game looks as awesome as it does, and have a good story (which we should expect from Remedy), then I doubt there would be much issues about how the bodies of the enemies fall.

[clip182]

For me it really doesn't matter but I could see how designers would like it for the sake of realism.

[Motz]

It matters a little bit to me, just because we are now going for realism in games as clip says. Most studios already have(or license) an engine, it just makes the experience more realistic I think, especially if you are killing tons of people.

As I said before though, I hate the engines that are so loose that body arms and legs go flailing all over the place.

[Exoskeletor]

Well it's important to me, i didn't enjoy the bodies on max payne 2 at all, they look fake. It is time for something like this and it would be good if alan wake would be the first game that will implement this feature.

Kahr, if we though with your way, then from the age of unreal 1, all the updates in all the new games was unneccecary because the story, music and the gameplay only matters.

I used to play with my amiga 1200 and i don't look graphics so much. i have play hundreds of great games without even 8bit colours but the technologies must not stop upgrading their techniques. For me to use an engine for more than 2 years, even this is wrong. You must create a new one.

[Cold Moose]

I can't remember the name of the company but IGN had an article about some new company that had created an awesome physics engine. basically it should how it could be used in games like madden so they wouldn't have to put a motion capture of the 4 or so different tackles that you always seem to see. It takes into account the environment and the direction that your player would be hit and it acts accordingly meaning no more of your player laying the same way or falling the same way everytime. A ton of companies had already signed on but I don't recall Remedy being one of them.

It was Aegia, the same company that's producing the new PhysX processing unit. But I think the videos were from a new physics engine, not the ppu.

[MentalSentinel]

For me it really doesn't matter but I could see how designers would like it for the sake of realism.
It matters a whole lot to me. I wouldn't want to play any game without ragdolls anymore.

[Kahr]

Kahr, if we though with your way, then from the age of unreal 1, all the updates in all the new games was unneccecary because the story, music and the gameplay only matters.
No, not really. The graphics are becoming better than what you see on TV these days. I mean, seriously, FMVs even start looking better than real life! My point is not that they stop improving graphics, no no, we love improvement of graphics, as long as graphics doesn't become EVERYTHING (like Final Fantasy X for instance...). Or that horrible previous Final Fantasy movie...

My point is was that why would how the enemy fall when you kill him/her/it be so important when you look at everything else? Bodies HAVE improved a lot. Take Counter-Strike. Kill someone close to a wall, and suddenly only the legs stick out from the wall because the body fell TROUGH it.

Take Half-Life 2. The bodies are positioned pretty much acording to what is around them. They can hang out of cliffs, sit down by a wall or lie around the floor.

I just don't want them to forget about stuff like the story, the gameplay and the music. They are ALL important factors!

[360Monster]

I spent ages playing Hitman 2 on the PS2. Used the nail gun cheat and started stapling people to walls.

That was a good little ragdoll animation going on there.

Not familiar with the 'Havoc' engine though. What games has it been used it?

[Kahr]

Isn't Havoc an engine created by Remedy? If so, I doubt it's been used before now.

[Morry]

There are about 100 games that have used Havok so far which include

* Age of Empires III
* Armed and Dangerous
* Astro Boy
* Auto Assault
* Backyard Wrestling: Don't Try This at Home
* Backyard Wrestling 2: There Goes the Neighborhood
* Brute Force
* Crash Nitro Kart
* DarkWatch
* Destroy All Humans
* Deus Ex: Invisible War
* F.E.A.R.
* Freelancer
* Full Spectrum Warrior
* Half-Life 2
* Halo 2
* Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne
* Medal of Honor: Pacific Assault
* Mercenaries: Playground of Destruction
* Middle-earth Online
* Painkiller
* Pariah
* Pitfall: The Lost Expedition
* Psi-Ops: The Mindgate Conspiracy
* Robotech: Invasion
* Second Life
* Starsky and Hutch
* The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
* The Punisher
* Thief: Deadly Shadows
* Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon 2
* Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory
* Torque: Savage Roads
* Tribes: Vengeance
* Uru: Ages Beyond Myst
* WWE Crush Hour

[Kahr]

Ouch. Guess I got the wrong message. :lol:

[Motz]

in response to morry, yeah tons of games use it, i wish someone would create a new engine.

[Jay Dawg]

if used right, havok is good. like in half life 2, when you kill a combine, they fall to the ground with a real sense of weight about them. in deus ex 2, they fall over and then their arms and legs sort of slowly settle down into a position that it feels like stopping at. very fake looking but it shows off nice physics either way.

[Exoskeletor]

half life 2 has indeed havoc implemented very good. Better than any other game has done until now. But, in the real life, if they shoot you you don't die instantly, that's why i prefer animations like medal oh honour: pacific assault. The problem with games like moh is that, when an enemy performs an animation before he dies, nothing can happen to him until it's down in the ground. you shoot hit, you throw a grenade, he still continue to die slowly.
A combination of havoc and animations will be great (and of cource i must can interfere in the animations. if i shoot him again to do something else)

[Morry]

half life 2 has indeed havoc implemented very good. Better than any other game has done until now. But, in the real life, if they shoot you you don't die instantly, that's why i prefer animations like medal oh honour: pacific assault. The problem with games like moh is that, when an enemy performs an animation before he dies, nothing can happen to him until it's down in the ground. you shoot hit, you throw a grenade, he still continue to die slowly.
A combination of havoc and animations will be great (and of cource i must can interfere in the animations. if i shoot him again to do something else)
That issue has been discussed with such developers as Valve. There was an interview with one of the animators and they believe that the next step in animation would be to include AI with the scripting. Take for example, a character running around a corner. What usually happens is that the character will run in two straight lines. By using AI with physics and scripting, you could have the character know not to blindly run around a corner, but slow down, shift their weight and maybe even take a peek around the corner.

[Exoskeletor]

this is not going to happen in alan wake morry?

[Morry]

this is not going to happen in alan wake morry?
I would not think so. Combining AI with scripting and physics is a fairly new and innovative design that I would not expect to see for a couple more years.

[icedog]

I thought the AI in F.E.A.R. was very impressive. They used combinations of animations too, such as throwing a large object in front of them to take cover while you fire at them. They're smart around corners too.

[camperz0]

The physics on Max Payne 2 were great- I never noticed any problems with them. They went totally smoothly and I was suprised by them at first (I'd never played a game with that much environmental involvement).

[Marcel]

You know, I think it would be possible to do something like that using Endorphin. http://www.naturalmotion.com/pages/products.htm Go there learn about it.
They use it in some video games and movies because it simulates real life movements in 3D. You can download it for free and have some fun with it.

[soraflair]

Why don't they just do what Perfect Dark Zero does?

[Coak]

Uh, what does it do?

[soraflair]

Uh, what does it do?
It allows objects in the game to act like they would in real life. :)

[Coak]

Physics engine, duh?

Edit: Just about every game has it now. Half-Life 2 had one of the best (on PC and AFAIK), with floating barrels and planks and boxes and watermelons that shatter to smaller pieces and breakable bottles and coffee mugs and barrels that go BOOM!. Ok, got a bit carried away there :)

[Kahr]

We all love that stuff, Coak. ;)

[Lukester]

Maybe the body can move awhile before they die.

But then, the physics engine now is overreacting, for example. When you shoot a body, the body flies across the room.

[igl]

I started to play around with 3D appz last year sometime, like Maya and zBrush even tried out some "smaller" (cheaper but not less advanced) programs like Modo. There is alot awesome stuff already happening for modelling, rigging, textures and physics. The techniques for high quality 3D graphics advanced so fast in the past years, it is only a matter of time till a GPU can do this stuff in realtime. One nice thing after another can be Adapted for a realtime render.

[stalker]

with floating barrels and planks and boxes and watermelons that shatter to smaller pieces and breakable bottles and coffee mugs and barrels that go BOOM!. Ok, got a bit carried away there :)

And all that great stuff can be handeled with the Gravity Gun. Yeap, best physics ever. Half-Life 3 will have even better physics, maybe better that we have here, in real life! :p

[Blackgeni]

If you saw the video, you saw builders rolling down a cliff,if they working close with havok then it's more then logical that they will implement it on enemies.

[Morry]

And all that great stuff can be handeled with the Gravity Gun. Yeap, best physics ever. Half-Life 3 will have even better physics, maybe better that we have here, in real life! :p
"What's Half-Life 3?" :P

[Coak]

I found some screenshots :D
http://zelda-syracus.halflifexpert.com/images/divers/HL3.jpg
http://img89.exs.cx/img89/3112/halflife3d5nf.jpg

[/offtopic]

[pepsimax]

I found some screenshots
http://zelda-syracus.halflifexpert.c...divers/HL3.jpg
http://img89.exs.cx/img89/3112/halflife3d5nf.jpg
Hahaha!:lol: Looks great

[pepsimax]

http://www.techspot.com/gallery/data/502/10317HL3_Confirmed.jpg

[Morry]

http://www.techspot.com/gallery/data/502/10317HL3_Confirmed.jpg
Not a bad find for an article two years old and published before HL2 even came out.
Notice how Gabe talks about episodic content for HL3. Also notice that Half-Life 2 : Episode One will be a series of episodes. Need I say anymore...

Anyway, we're getting a little sidetracked here. So I might bring in some more relevant information.
As guap referred to in another topic http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/702/702389p1.html
I believe this is the next step for in-game physics. I doubt we will see this in Alan Wake but it's a nice piece of tech to look forward to in the future.

[pepsimax]

Sorry, I didn´t read that article when I posted it!

[writersblock]

I think it is important to have a body fall correctly. Especially if you want to deal with items in the enviroment that can be affected as a result of the fall. If an enemy is blasted at close range with a shotgun in the chest it should fall backwards. As a result of the fall a coffee table gets broken. You run out of ammo and another enemy is apporaching. Pick up a broken leg of the coffee table and whack the oncoming foe. For realism an immersion the enemy should die different then with a shotgun blast.

Havoc engine is important to the future of games in a 3d enviroment. I think that the Havoc engine or some newly designed physics engine can revolutionize gameplay if done correctly.

[Smoke_Tetsu]

The only complaint that I had with how Havok did the physics in Max Payne 2 is if you'd shoot a bad guy with one of the weaker pistols and his body does a flip in the air like there was some kind of explosion or the bodies don't have any weight to them.

[Neimonster]

On the whole coffee table thing; there was a game called trespasser, where you could essentially pick up anything and use it as a weapon. Either for throwing or bashing.
I've been waiting for more games like it ever since. Alan Wake won't be it.

My guess is that Alan Wake uses ragdolls for bodies, which would mean they DO fall backwards if they're blasted in the chest. How accurately they fall depends on how they're implemented. We'll just have to wait and see. :)

[Exoskeletor]

After all AI Scripting for Crysis is implemented, not when the players duying but everywhere else, this is a start

[billerr]

Perhaps alan wake could include something that was talked about in the first threads bout it's gameplay, being able to pickup everything as a weapon. It was available in Condemned. A nice use for that would be this: whenever you find a situation without a weapon, a direct danger is approaching and there some suitable objects around, pushing a button on the controller would force Alan to grab the, most appropriate as a weapon, available object around him. it could be a pre-configured animation, since the advanced character interaction techniques probably wont be a part of AW.