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Old 04-29-2010, 07:19 PM   #1
QuickVegasskill
Face animation

Ok so some people(reviewers etc.) complains on facial animations in the game.
That they are stiff etc.
I think that Remedy should outsource that part of the game to Image Metrics.

Image Metrics made facial animations in games like God of war 3, Devil May Cry 4, Uncharted.
I have noticed in one picture on Eurogamer that Remedy has used markers to animate face, here
http://images.eurogamer.net/assets/a...slideshow=true

Image Metrics don't use any markers.
Alan Wake looks awesome, i am just bit disappointed when i hear that face animation is stiff.
This is thriller game and facial expressions are crucial.

Does Remedy considered facial animation in external company like Image Metrics?
http://www.image-metrics.com
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:37 PM   #2
chandoo

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Re: Face animation

I think it's a little too late for them to consider alternatives for Alan Wake now
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:45 PM   #3
AnttiApina

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Re: Face animation

Hopefully the facials are improved in the future titles.
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:59 PM   #4
reprec

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Re: Face animation

It seems they outsourced it, the results were going to be amazing as there were some videos on youtube about the technology used by this company, don't remember the name, but it has been talked on this forums.
I don't really know what happened, it's weird, but it looks like these facial animations are the same as what we seen in the last E3, so maybe something strange happened and they didn't make it at the end...
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Old 04-29-2010, 08:59 PM   #5
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Re: Face animation

Check the banners of their clients... Who's among them ?

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Old 04-29-2010, 09:25 PM   #6
SeekingtheTruth
Re: Face animation

Alan's wife looking a bit tipsy lol

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Old 04-29-2010, 09:28 PM   #7
burjeffton

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Re: Face animation

We haven't seen the finished game yet. Too early to judge.
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:31 PM   #8
ancient

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by reprec View Post
I don't really know what happened, it's weird, but it looks like these facial animations are the same as what we seen in the last E3, so maybe something strange happened and they didn't make it at the end...
I suspect it's the result of performance optimizations: the level of detail reduced for models and things like that.


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Old 04-29-2010, 09:34 PM   #9
CATNIPLOL
Re: Face animation

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Originally Posted by SeekingtheTruth View Post
Alan's wife looking a bit tipsy lol

Hmmm, so thats why they went to Bright Falls in the first place; they have a weed plantation there. Thats why they stop off at the cafe in the beginning of the game... "Alan, go pick up the key... and the munchies". I knew it
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Old 04-29-2010, 09:37 PM   #10
SeekingtheTruth
Re: Face animation

^

Thought I heard Peter Paul's "Puff the Magic Dragon" low on their car's stereo on their trip there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wik2uc69WbU
Last edited by SeekingtheTruth; 04-29-2010 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 04-29-2010, 10:19 PM   #11
Vegan

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by CATNIPLOL View Post
Hmmm, so thats why they went to Bright Falls in the first place; they have a weed plantation there. Thats why they stop off at the cafe in the beginning of the game... "Alan, go pick up the key... and the munchies". I knew it
That's not Alice final facial animation

Alan... Wake up
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Old 04-29-2010, 11:28 PM   #12
Red Echidna

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Re: Face animation

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Originally Posted by Vegan View Post
That's not Alice final facial animation
Oh, so would you say that the facial animation is great?

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Old 04-30-2010, 12:00 AM   #13
mistermeister
Re: Face animation

The Facial Animation of Heavy Rain may be a bit better (but there are also critics) but i think the Facial Animation of Alan Wake also will be great. I other Words: I've seen worst
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Old 04-30-2010, 12:30 AM   #14
Vegan

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Re: Face animation

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Originally Posted by Red Echidna View Post
Oh, so would you say that the facial animation is great?
It's quite better.

A lot of post-processing makes a lot of difference

Alan... Wake up
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Old 04-30-2010, 07:42 AM   #15
MarkusRMD

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Re: Face animation

We have a few different methods of doing facial animation - in-game using FaceFX and motion capture used in cinematics. While I think it'll always be possible to get "fugly" single frames out of any game we definitely learned a lot doing Alan Wake, and will try to improve the way we do things to get best possible looking facials. In fact, we're using some of the improvements in the DLC production already.

It's not alone a matter of the method how or where the facial capture is done, it's about the run-time animation techniques available, skeleton setup and so on. It's a complex problem trying to dodge the Uncanny Valley.
Last edited by MarkusRMD; 04-30-2010 at 07:45 AM.
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:01 AM   #16
BxB402

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Re: Face animation

Always gotta get the best looking facials.

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Old 04-30-2010, 08:04 AM   #17
Matti1

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Re: Face animation

I am not an expert, but LA Noire tech sounds impressive to me.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/fi...details-appear

"It's obviously cool technology, but the key thing for us is that when you're interrogating someone, you can read their faces and tell if they're lying," said McNamara. "That is a key component of the gameplay."
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:15 PM   #18
QuickVegasskill
Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by reprec View Post
It seems they outsourced it, the results were going to be amazing as there were some videos on youtube about the technology used by this company, don't remember the name, but it has been talked on this forums.
I don't really know what happened, it's weird, but it looks like these facial animations are the same as what we seen in the last E3, so maybe something strange happened and they didn't make it at the end...
Yeah i dig a bit and found the name of company. Its "CaptiveMotion".

http://www.captivemotion.com/

Demo on that site looks very good. So what happend?

@Vegan
Can you say more about this issue? How post process can improve facial animation?
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Old 04-30-2010, 02:34 PM   #19
AnttiApina

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickVegasskill View Post
Demo on that site looks very good. So what happend?
The model in the demo has much higher poly count.

What I'd like to improve, is the eye movement. HL 2 is a game from 2004 and still has some of the most amazing facial expressions to date. They even hired a specialist of facial motion and face muscles.

It's not only the mouth and eyes that need to be moved: nostrils, cheecks etc.
Last edited by AnttiApina; 04-30-2010 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 04-30-2010, 03:14 PM   #20
Ruuttu

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiApina View Post
The model in the demo has much higher poly count.

What I'd like to improve, is the eye movement. HL 2 is a game from 2004 and still has some of the most amazing facial expressions to date. They even hired a specialist of facial motion and face muscles.

It's not only the mouth and eyes that need to be moved: nostrils, cheecks etc.
What I don't understand is that if you have 500 markers on an actors face and their movement is being perfectly tracked and transformed to a 3D face, how come the end result look so dead? I mean, couldn't you just do a 1:1 copy from the original captured data to the polygons on the face model? What happens in between that causes the loss in detail?
Last edited by Ruuttu; 04-30-2010 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 04-30-2010, 03:45 PM   #21
MarcFirewing

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Re: Face animation

I dunno, the heated argument between Barry and Alan about going to see the Officer seemed pretty good facial expressions to me. Then again, I haven't seen gameplay facial expressions. =| BUT I CANNOT WAIT FOR THIS! MY RATING STILL STANDS. FIVE OF FIVE XD
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Old 04-30-2010, 08:50 PM   #22
Red Echidna

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcFirewing View Post
I dunno, the heated argument between Barry and Alan about going to see the Officer seemed pretty good facial expressions to me.
Please use spoiler tags!

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Old 04-30-2010, 09:05 PM   #23
northernlights

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Re: Face animation

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Originally Posted by Red Echidna View Post
Please use spoiler tags!
This scene is from a trailer. I think it would be a bit overkill to spoiltag official trailers.
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Old 04-30-2010, 09:12 PM   #24
Sebastian

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by northernlights View Post
This scene is from a trailer. I think it would be a bit overkill to spoiltag official trailers.
Which trailer?

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Old 05-01-2010, 12:00 AM   #25
Red Echidna

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by northernlights View Post
This scene is from a trailer. I think it would be a bit overkill to spoiltag official trailers.
I've seen all of the trailers, but I've never seen this so-called argument.

EDIT: Since it's from actual gameplay and not a trailer, it definitely could have used spoiler tags.

Some are born to light. Some are born to endless night...
Last edited by Red Echidna; 05-01-2010 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:25 AM   #26
MarcFirewing

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Re: Face animation

It's not a trailer, it's a gameplay release video. Lemme get the link.

http://www.youtube.com/remedygames#p/u/8/uVweiasFENg

I call it a heated argument because Alan yells. >.>
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:35 AM   #27
QuantumWake

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Re: Face animation

I'm interested to see how Remedy improves the games graphics with DLC.

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Old 05-13-2010, 08:14 PM   #28
FKNzombies
Re: Face animation

The facial animation sucks **** because Remedy took Finnish-speaking actors to a motion capture studio in America and had them try to lip-sync English lines.
This is a fact.
The mocap studio that did the facial animation is a great studio that does beautiful work.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:16 PM   #29
Ruuttu

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FKNzombies View Post
The facial animation sucks **** because Remedy took Finnish-speaking actors to a motion capture studio in America and had them try to lip-sync English lines.
This is a fact.
The mocap studio that did the facial animation is a great studio that does beautiful work.
Argh.

The dead eye -syndrome, the unrealistic skin streching etcetera have nothing to do with the actors performance. No blame on the actors, please.
I think the main problem is (just a bit too) low poly-count on the face and the animation system driving it, but it's surely not that simple.
Last edited by Ruuttu; 05-13-2010 at 08:24 PM.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:21 PM   #30
FKNzombies
Re: Face animation

@Ruuttu

They have everything to do with the performance.

That particular studio uses like 1600 face markers to capture motion of the face.

Dead actor --> dead performance --> dead character
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:48 PM   #31
FKNzombies
Re: Face animation

@Ruuttu

go ahead and watch this in fullscreen HQ. it's a video found on the face studio's website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltlht...layer_embedded

When you watch this video, pay attention to the level of asymmetrical detail in the actor's face. pay attention to the realism in the forehead wrinkles. and pay attention to the eyes. dead-eye syndrome is a result of bad face-acting. if you watch closely during this animation, you can actually see the actor reading his lines through the character performance. the character model is continuously looking down... looking down at his teleprompter.
the overall facial performance by the actor shows through on the character model and the result is beautiful.
THIS is what Alan Wake's characters COULD look like.


Also, stop the video around 35 seconds and look at the poly count. Most likely upwards of 1000? So saying that the software used isn't capable of high poly count models is ridiculous. That model has a huge poly count
Last edited by FKNzombies; 05-13-2010 at 08:53 PM. Reason: update
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:51 PM   #32
AnttiApina

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FKNzombies View Post
THIS is what Alan Wake's characters COULD look like.
I think not: Alan Wake characters don't have such a high polycount in their faces.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:56 PM   #33
WakeLestat360

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Re: Face animation

Remedy, have you put that "updated" facial animation on the game?

Or is coming with the DLC?

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Old 05-13-2010, 08:57 PM   #34
sirxlaughs
Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FKNzombies View Post
@Ruuttu

go ahead and watch this in fullscreen HQ. it's a video found on the face studio's website: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltlht...layer_embedded

When you watch this video, pay attention to the level of asymmetrical detail in the actor's face. pay attention to the realism in the forehead wrinkles. and pay attention to the eyes. dead-eye syndrome is a result of bad face-acting. if you watch closely during this animation, you can actually see the actor reading his lines through the character performance. the character model is continuously looking down... looking down at his teleprompter.
the overall facial performance by the actor shows through on the character model and the result is beautiful.
THIS is what Alan Wake's characters COULD look like.


Also, stop the video around 35 seconds and look at the poly count. Most likely upwards of 1000? So saying that the software used isn't capable of high poly count models is ridiculous. That model has a huge poly count
It's not that simple. If I recall correctly, Remedy outsourced the facial animations to CaptiveMotion. Once they have that data, though, it's up to them to implement it into their engine. For whatever reason, it just wasn't possible to do and still release the game on schedule. I'm looking forward to seeing the improvements in the DLC and the eventual sequel.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:57 PM   #35
FKNzombies
Re: Face animation

@AnttiApina

I didn't say they did lol just saying that the software is capable of driving higher poly characters
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:01 PM   #36
FKNzombies
Re: Face animation

@sirxlaughs

Truth, it was outsourced to captivemotion, i was talking about them in my post.
the game's not even out yet, anyway. we'll see how good or bad it is after release.
Either way, the game will be amazing
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:03 PM   #37
sirxlaughs
Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FKNzombies View Post
@sirxlaughs

Truth, it was outsourced to captivemotion, i was talking about them in my post.
the game's not even out yet, anyway. we'll see how good or bad it is after release.
Either way, the game will be amazing
Street date was broken in some areas. Not to mention that it's talked about in reviews and you can see it in review videos.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:07 PM   #38
FKNzombies
Re: Face animation

@sirxlaughs

you still can't do it justice until official release when 100% of the game is revealed.
the only thing i'm really saying is that the studio that did the facial animation for the game is capable of much better facial animation than any of the bad animation caused by the acting performances in A Wake
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:27 PM   #39
northernlights

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Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FKNzombies View Post
The facial animation sucks **** because Remedy took Finnish-speaking actors to a motion capture studio in America and had them try to lip-sync English lines.
This is a fact.
Care to backup your facts with proof? Thanks.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:02 PM   #40
sirxlaughs
Re: Face animation

Quote:
Originally Posted by FKNzombies View Post
@sirxlaughs

you still can't do it justice until official release when 100% of the game is revealed.
the only thing i'm really saying is that the studio that did the facial animation for the game is capable of much better facial animation than any of the bad animation caused by the acting performances in A Wake
The studio that did the facial animation isn't responsible for its in-game implementation. That's up to the developers to decide how to put into the game. Again, there are people with the 100%, full retail version of the game already. Even Remedy has said that they'll be improving the facial animations for the DLC, which means they recognize it's not the best.
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