Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

    Hello Everyone! Care to share your thoughts on this. (I really don't know if this topic has been discussed before.)

    While browsing on the manuscript pages, I happen to have some thoughts about what happened to Thomas Zane after he jumped into the Lake. This event is suggested to have happened around the year 1970. When you have the time you could check out the manuscript. There is a page written about it. It is called: “Thomas Zane’s Last Dive.” I believe it is located in the Episode 6 Pages.

    In this page, it described what Zane did to Barbara (Dark Presence.) What do you think happened to them? I have a couple of mysteries that needs your opinion:

    1. Is Zane dead? We already know he is not dead, or do we? I believe there are written materials out there that indicate Zane is alive after that jump. So let us pretend Zane is dead. If he is dead after that jump, how could he appear in Alan’s dream in the beginning of the game? If Zane is dead, then Alan wrote him back to life with his manuscript and the power of the Lake in the middle of the game. How could Alan just write somebody back to life? Zane tried to do that with Barbara and it did not work. Now Alan could just do that with Zane in a snap? With no complications? It should be highly unlikely, right? So, there are strong evidences that indicate Zane is alive after that jump in 1970 until Alan arrives.

    2. Is Zane alive? If he is, is he holding Barbara (Dark Presence) captive all this time? If Barbara (Dark Presence) is being held by Zane all this time, how did she get to Oh Dear Diner and then to the cabin in the beginning of the game? Is Barbara (Dark Presence) with Zane or did she escape Zane’s clutches? How did Barbara (Dark Presence) escape Zane if Zane made it look like he wrote both him and her out of existence on that page? If Zane wrote it like that, would it also come true when the power of the lake takes effect on Zane’s writing? If this is so, then Barbara (Dark Presence) should not be able to escape Zane because it is written. So, how did Barbara (Dark Presence) escape Zane and then meet Alan at the Diner if she can’t escape at all? Unless Zane died (or He is not real.)

    Care to join me with your thoughts on this?
    Last edited by Jill; 02-22-2012, 07:05 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

    Well he's not distinctively dead, but he's certainly not alive either. Alan comments in the Writer DLC that he questions whenever Tom is even human anymore. Thomas no longer exists in the world besides slight traces, so technically he was never born. But he still exists, but I don't think he is living anymore. I think it's less life and death and more he's lost his humanity. That last part is just theory, but I think it might be the best way to word it for now.
    Sometimes the more things change, the more they stay the same.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

      Originally posted by Dusk Golem View Post
      Well he's not distinctively dead, but he's certainly not alive either. Alan comments in the Writer DLC that he questions whenever Tom is even human anymore. Thomas no longer exists in the world besides slight traces, so technically he was never born. But he still exists, but I don't think he is living anymore. I think it's less life and death and more he's lost his humanity. That last part is just theory, but I think it might be the best way to word it for now.
      Good point Dusk Golem. That is indeed interesting. Zane wrote himself out of existence, hence, the world thinks he is just a myth. They may even think he was never born. But not to every single being in the world believes that. Cynthia Weaver, Doctor Hartman, and the Anderson Brothers believe he exists.

      Then, there are Agent Nightingale and Clay Steward. They did their own investigations and they provided proof that Thomas Zane and Barbara Jagger existed by showing a newspaper clipping about Barbara’s death in the obituary of The Bright Falls Record. It was stated there – “She was survived by her companion Thomas Zane.”

      You mentioned above that “Thomas no longer exists in the world besides slight traces, so technically he was never born. But he still exists.” If Zane still exist, is his existence real or just created?

      If his existence is real, then this would point back to my initial question above, in the beginning of this thread:

      “What happened to Zane and Barbara (Dark Presence) when they jumped into the lake?”

      Their story has been written and explained in one of the manuscript pages. You could go and check it out when you have the time. It is called: “Thomas Zane’s Last Dive.” I believe it is located in the Episode 6 Pages.

      The big mystery behind this page is that who wrote it? – “Did Zane write it and then it happened in 1970, later on Alan found it and wrote it to his manuscript “Departure?” or “Did Alan just write this page to create a back-story for his character Thomas Zane in his manuscript?”

      The big dilemma now is:

      If Zane is real and he wrote this page before Alan did, then when the power of the Lake is applied to this page, the story on this page will come true. Right? Zane and Barbara (Dark Presence) will be bound by this story forever because that is the power of the Lake. Then how on earth did Barbara (Dark Presence) escape Zane and then show up at the diner at the beginning of the game if Zane and Barbara (Dark Presence) are already bound by this story that came true and was made true by the power of the Lake?

      If Zane died, then you should read my first explanation above.

      If Zane is not real, just a created character by Alan, then I guess you know what’s coming. Everything is not real! Zane, Jagger, Dark Presence, etc……….they are all not real. Everything happened because Alan wrote them into his manuscript. Alan’s own story. Alan’s own “Delusional” story!

      Anyone out there who would like to share their thoughts on this? Please.

      (Please pardon my Wall of Text.)

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

        Let's address this by points:

        1. No, Zane is not "alive" in the actual meaning of the word. He existed in the real world, Barbara died, he tried to bring her back, made a terrible mistake, swore Cynthia to keep the town safe and assist anyone, who fights The Dark Presence again, wrote himself out of existence and dived in the lake. He was now trapped in The Dark Place - however, he was not DEAD in the generic sense, as he made it so he never existed in the real world now - he is technically still "alive", because it's a completely different plain of existence and normal rules that apply to the human world certainly do not apply to The Dark Place.

        2. While in the cabin and writing for Jagger, Alan found Zane's books in the shoebox. That is where he got the idea of Zane coming from The Dark Place and helping him (you can verify this in one of the TV shows). So, Alan sent a "transmission" to The Dark Place (as Zane put it), calling the poet out to help him fight Barbara. Alan also wrote the page about The Clicker at that time -- specifically, he wrote about how ZANE wrote a biographical page about him and The Clicker. At that time, reality was warped so that the Well-Lit Room and Cynthia were now protecting The Clicker. To put it more simply - Alan writes about how Zane writes about Alan. The world changes, Zane's legacy (The Clicker) now exists. The Clicker did not exist until Alan wrote the page(s) about Zane coming back and helping him; the moment he did, all those events were set off.

        3. Zane was ONLY a character in the story in the sense that he was called back from The Dark Place and bound by the pages Alan wrote about the poet helping him fight Barbara. Zane and Barbara both existed in the real world -- there are newspaper articles about Barbara and Cynthia is not the only one, who knows Zane -- Hartman and the Old Gods are very solid proof he existed. Furthermore, Hartman is responsible for the events of the game and for Zane erasing himself, as you should know from manuscript pages and the Alan Wake Files.

        4. There are many clues that suggest many of the people in Bright Falls know about The Dark Presence AND Zane, as well as the power of the lake.
        "There's an old tale wrought with the mystery of Tom the Poet and his Muse and a magic lake, which gave a life to the words the Poet used.."

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

          Originally posted by AeddGynvael View Post
          Let's address this by points:

          1. No, Zane is not "alive" in the actual meaning of the word. He existed in the real world, Barbara died, he tried to bring her back, made a terrible mistake, swore Cynthia to keep the town safe and assist anyone, who fights The Dark Presence again, wrote himself out of existence and dived in the lake. He was now trapped in The Dark Place - however, he was not DEAD in the generic sense, as he made it so he never existed in the real world now - he is technically still "alive", because it's a completely different plain of existence and normal rules that apply to the human world certainly do not apply to The Dark Place.

          2. While in the cabin and writing for Jagger, Alan found Zane's books in the shoebox. That is where he got the idea of Zane coming from The Dark Place and helping him (you can verify this in one of the TV shows). So, Alan sent a "transmission" to The Dark Place (as Zane put it), calling the poet out to help him fight Barbara. Alan also wrote the page about The Clicker at that time -- specifically, he wrote about how ZANE wrote a biographical page about him and The Clicker. At that time, reality was warped so that the Well-Lit Room and Cynthia were now protecting The Clicker. To put it more simply - Alan writes about how Zane writes about Alan. The world changes, Zane's legacy (The Clicker) now exists. The Clicker did not exist until Alan wrote the page(s) about Zane coming back and helping him; the moment he did, all those events were set off.

          3. Zane was ONLY a character in the story in the sense that he was called back from The Dark Place and bound by the pages Alan wrote about the poet helping him fight Barbara. Zane and Barbara both existed in the real world -- there are newspaper articles about Barbara and Cynthia is not the only one, who knows Zane -- Hartman and the Old Gods are very solid proof he existed. Furthermore, Hartman is responsible for the events of the game and for Zane erasing himself, as you should know from manuscript pages and the Alan Wake Files.

          4. There are many clues that suggest many of the people in Bright Falls know about The Dark Presence AND Zane, as well as the power of the lake.

          Nicely done Aeddgynvael! I am impressed. You my friend, have a very well put theory. Some very good points. But it is not perfect yet. There are some flaws to it. Please let me explain my original dilemma.

          Did you read the “page” I was talking about above in my first post? The page is called: “Thomas Zane’s Last Dive.” I believe it is located in the Episode 6 Pages. I hate to write spoilers here but what the heck! I will ask Remedy’s permission here to post one of the manuscript pages. I hope its okay since this is part of the spoiler thread anyway. Here it goes:


          Thomas Zane's Last Dive

          Zane cut its heart out, but it didn't die. The thing that wore Barbara's face kept crooning sweet nothings, sugar laced with poison.

          He put on the suit, untied the monster from the chair. The thing in his arms thrashed weakly, but he held fast. He stepped outside, off the pier, and into the dark water, a sinking pinprick of light, descending toward a bottom that never came.


          This page is part of the manuscript. Who wrote this?

          Did Zane write this initially and then Alan found it and then Alan wrote this in his manuscript? Remember, we are reading only Alan’s manuscript. It seems to me that you have answered this question in your point # 2 above.

          Well, regardless of whoever wrote it first, the power of the Lake would still be applied to it and thus, following the rules of the game, this page should still come true, right?

          So, If this page came true due to the power of the Lake, then Zane and Barbara (Dark Presence) are bound to this page, the Lake’s power and this reality forever. My question now is – “How on earth did Barbara (Dark Presence) escaped Zane and then be at the diner in the beginning of the game when she is also bound by this reality of the page coming true?”

          If the page above came true, then Barbara (Dark Presence) should still be held by Zane down at the Dark Place. That’s what the page said.

          If Zane wrote this page before Alan, then this reality precedes Alan’s time. So Zane’s existence is real. Therefore, Zane and Barbara (Dark Presence) should still be in the Dark Place.

          If Alan wrote this page to create a backstory for Zane, then Zane’s existence is just created by Alan. Zane is not real but just a created character. And you know what happens next. If Zane is not real, then Barbara, Dark Presence, etc. are not real as well. They are all just delusions. Alan’s delusonal characters.

          Now, to express my point further. This story of Zane and Barbara (Dark Presence) jumping into the lake is not isolated by just this page alone. Even the Old gods of Asgard wrote it in their song. Again, I will ask permission from Remedy to post this. Here it goes:

          The Poet and the Muse Lyrics
          In the dead of night she came to him with darkness in her eyes
          Wearing a mourning gown, sweet words as her disguise
          He took her in without a word for he saw his grave mistake
          And vowed them both to silence deep beneath the lake
          Now, if it's real or just a dream one mystery remains
          For it is said, on moonless nights they may still haunt this place

          It seems to me that even artistic creations from singers/song writers could also be affected by the power of the Lake. If this verse above, written and sang by the Old gods of Asgard comes true because of the power of the Lake, then it would confirm and reinforce the page even more.


          Another flaw to your theory is this:

          Originally posted by AeddGynvael View Post
          Furthermore, Hartman is responsible for the events of the game and for Zane erasing himself, as you should know from manuscript pages and the Alan Wake Files.

          Hartman is responsible? This is new information to me. Please elaborate the manuscript pages or the facts in the Alan Wake Files that would suggest and point Doctor Hartman as responsible for the events of the game.

          You have a really good theory though and a good grasp of the game, Aeddgynvael. Flawed but good! Something worth proving and maybe following if it becomes polished. So give it a shot again.
          Last edited by Jill; 03-01-2012, 05:05 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

            As you know from Manuscript pages, Hartman was the one, who made Tom try and bring Barbara back with the power of Cauldron Lake and he was planning on controlling Tom further. He realized that, while he himself couldn't harvest its power, acting as an "editor" would be more than enough and he would still accomplish his insane ideas of an "utopia".
            That is why he has been trying to find another "subject" (creator) to use for his own personal needs and visions and discard after that.
            He is indirectly responsible for the events of the game, in the sense that he made Alice bring Alan to Bright Falls with the intent of using the Lake's powers for his own needs - he very well KNEW what would happen when Barbara sensed a mind like Alan's... And, he was prepared. Generators, big lights, et cetera. he thought he could protect himself. Were it not for Hartman, The Dark Presence would never have touched Alan or took Alice.


            If Alan wrote this page to create a backstory for Zane, then Zane’s existence is just created by Alan
            Wrong. Part of a character's backstory being written by Alan doesn't mean they never existed -- plenty of other characters are given backstories (Rusty, Rose, Barry, Alice, Doc Nelson, The Old Gods) et cetera. The manuscript Alan wrote changed reality on numerous occasions and shaped it to Barbara's will, BUT, as it is clearly apparent, not all of the manuscript pages are meant to change reality. (That is the ultimate goal, but it needs to be achieved carefully, as "everything needs to be just right".)

            It seems to me that even artistic creations from singers/song writers could also be affected by the power of the Lake
            Yes, as stated in a manuscript page:
            "The rock stars had stirred it from the deep sleep the poet had sunk it back to in the end."
            Any powerful enough creator would be able to stir The Dark Presence.
            Furthermore, both the manuscript page and the lyrics of the song are exaggerated in one detail - The Dark Presence could never be controlled, destroyed, imprisoned or subdued fully. Ever. It is a "being" much older than anything, with powers and goals very alien to humans. Jagger was not the first one, whose face it wears. (The earliest known instance of someone knowing about the power of the lake and the Dark Presence are the Indians, who claimed it was, "A door to the underworld"). Zane's powerful sacrifice did hurt it and did "bound" it, BUT never completely limited its powers. As referenced by Mulligan and Thornton, ("Hell, it's always weird, Thornton. Just a matter of what kind of weird it is this time."), Jagger still could affect the human world, even after "vowed to silence deep beneath the lake".
            After it sensed Alan, it gathered all its powers to go to the human world in its "human" form, so it could go back to its old days of terrible power again.

            This page is part of the manuscript. Who wrote this?
            Not all pages of the manuscript aim to change reality (those that do, however, do it relentlessly and uncompromisingly) - that was just a "record" of sorts. We have no idea what it is like to be in The Dark Place - for all we know, all the details from every single inhabitant of Bright Falls could have been revealed to Wake there. And it only makes sense to also take into account the possibility of ZANE HIMSELF telling Alan what he did - they were both in The Dark Place.
            Last edited by AeddGynvael; 03-01-2012, 11:33 AM.
            "There's an old tale wrought with the mystery of Tom the Poet and his Muse and a magic lake, which gave a life to the words the Poet used.."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

              Originally posted by AeddGynvael View Post
              As you know from Manuscript pages, Hartman was the one, who made Tom try and bring Barbara back with the power of Cauldron Lake and he was planning on controlling Tom further. He realized that, while he himself couldn't harvest its power, acting as an "editor" would be more than enough and he would still accomplish his insane ideas of an "utopia".
              That is why he has been trying to find another "subject" (creator) to use for his own personal needs and visions and discard after that.
              He is indirectly responsible for the events of the game, in the sense that he made Alice bring Alan to Bright Falls with the intent of using the Lake's powers for his own needs - he very well KNEW what would happen when Barbara sensed a mind like Alan's... And, he was prepared. Generators, big lights, et cetera. he thought he could protect himself. Were it not for Hartman, The Dark Presence would never have touched Alan or took Alice.



              Wrong. Part of a character's backstory being written by Alan doesn't mean they never existed -- plenty of other characters are given backstories (Rusty, Rose, Barry, Alice, Doc Nelson, The Old Gods) et cetera. The manuscript Alan wrote changed reality on numerous occasions and shaped it to Barbara's will, BUT, as it is clearly apparent, not all of the manuscript pages are meant to change reality. (That is the ultimate goal, but it needs to be achieved carefully, as "everything needs to be just right".)



              Yes, as stated in a manuscript page:
              "The rock stars had stirred it from the deep sleep the poet had sunk it back to in the end."
              Any powerful enough creator would be able to stir The Dark Presence.
              Furthermore, both the manuscript page and the lyrics of the song are exaggerated in one detail - The Dark Presence could never be controlled, destroyed, imprisoned or subdued fully. Ever. It is a "being" much older than anything, with powers and goals very alien to humans. Jagger was not the first one, whose face it wears. (The earliest known instance of someone knowing about the power of the lake and the Dark Presence are the Indians, who claimed it was, "A door to the underworld"). Zane's powerful sacrifice did hurt it and did "bound" it, BUT never completely limited its powers. As referenced by Mulligan and Thornton, ("Hell, it's always weird, Thornton. Just a matter of what kind of weird it is this time."), Jagger still could affect the human world, even after "vowed to silence deep beneath the lake".
              After it sensed Alan, it gathered all its powers to go to the human world in its "human" form, so it could go back to its old days of terrible power again.


              Not all pages of the manuscript aim to change reality (those that do, however, do it relentlessly and uncompromisingly) - that was just a "record" of sorts. We have no idea what it is like to be in The Dark Place - for all we know, all the details from every single inhabitant of Bright Falls could have been revealed to Wake there. And it only makes sense to also take into account the possibility of ZANE HIMSELF telling Alan what he did - they were both in The Dark Place.
              Very well said AeddGynvael. I am speechless. You do have a very good point. I believe I am entitled to express my own humble opinion as well, just like everybody else here.

              Now, this is my belief. What I am about to say here is a theoretical interpretation that I follow so that I could understand what is going on with the game.

              I believe, in my own humble opinion, that what we are playing in the main game is already written. We are playing “Departure.” Yes, we are playing the events that are already written in the manuscript. From the beginning of the game up to the end, we are playing the “Departure” manuscript.

              Now, not a lot of people would accept this. But this is my belief. My own personal theoretical interpretation. Please let me explain. This is going to be quite lengthy and “spoilerish.” So, I would like to ask Remedy’s permission again. I’ll show some manuscript pages here to explain my point. Here we go:


              Wake Attacked by a Shadowy Murderer

              The man turned to face me. His face was covered in shadows. It was hard to make him out in the darkness of the forest that surrounded us, but the axe he lifted was plain to see. It glistened with the blood of his victim.
              He grinned madly. The shadows were alive, distorting his features.
              It was a scene from a nightmare, but I was awake.


              This is the second manuscript page that Alan found in the game. The first on is the Title page. For me, this page describes the scene where Clay Steward got axed by the Taken hitchhiker after helping Alan Wake. This happened in Alan’s dream in the beginning of the game. This event (Alan’s Dream) is written in the manuscript! Next page:


              Wake Fights a Taken with light

              The taken stood before me. It was impossible to focus on it, as if it stood in a blind spot caused by a brain tumor or an eye disease. It was bleeding shadows like ink underwater, like a cloud of blood from a shark bite. I was terrified. I squeezed the flashlight like my life depended on it, willing it to stop it coming any closer. Suddenly, something gave, and the light seemed to shine brighter.


              For me, the page above describes how Alan is discovering the mechanics of the game by expressing his thoughts about the power of the flashlight and how he can eliminate the Taken. This is Alan’s first encounter with the flashlight to be used as a weapon. Again, this happened in Alan’s dream in the beginning of the game. This event (Alan’s Dream) is written in the manuscript! Next page:


              The Dark Presence Wakes Up

              For a long time, the Dark Presence had been weak, sleeping, nothing but a half-forgotten nightmare or a shadowy flicker in the corner of an eye in the forest at night; not real enough to properly exist, and yet too evocative to fade away completely.
              Now it was waking up, the writer like a fly caught in a spider's web, each jerk and kick vibrating the strands that led deep into its lair. It was aware of him now, and it could use him.
              All he'd need was a little incentive.


              Now, for the above page, it is not specifically stated when this scene happened. But that doesn’t mean we can’t speculate. Right?.....After all, my points are theoretical only. So, for me, this may describe the scene where Alan reached the lighthouse and the Dark Presence zooms in on Alan’s face while he is under the circular staircase, and then we hear a whisper “He is here.” (This is just my own placement; this page could be place to describe it anywhere in the beginning of the game.) Again, this happened in Alan’s dream in the beginning of the game. This event (Alan’s Dream) is written in the manuscript!

              Before we move on to the next page, I would like to explain quickly how I have understood the nature of the Dark Presence is. We have the Dark Presence and then we have Barbara (Face of the Dark Presence). If we eliminate Barbara from this equation, the Dark Presence still exists. These are 2 different entities representing one.

              So, the page above does not necessarily pertain to Barbara alone but to the Dark Presence as a one entity and as a whole. Next page:


              Mott on the Ferry

              For Mott, spying on the writer on the ferry had been a disappointment. His boss had made Wake out to be something special. He'd gotten a good, long look of the wife, though, and liked what he saw. Mott had fantasized about goading Wake into a fight, but it hadn't happened. Still, he'd get his chance to see if the writer had anything in him.
              He'd been promised as much.


              For the page above, for me, this is an implied thought of Mott. We don’t see Mott as actually saying or thinking this in the game. But we see Mott in the ferry and he behaves oddly enough when Alan interacts with him that we are convinced by this page to be the true thoughts of Mott eventhough we did not really see or experience it in the game. Next Page:


              The Dark Presence Sleeps
              For decades, the darkness that wore Barbara Jagger's skin slept fitfully in the dark place that was its home and prison. It was hungry and in pain. It dreamed of its nights of glory when the poet's writing had called it from the depths and given it a brief, terrible taste of power and freedom. The rock stars had stirred it from the deep sleep the poet had sunk it back to in the end.

              When it sensed the writer on the ferry, it opened its eyes.


              Ah yes, the page above is my favorite for this thread. Now this page actually mentions Barbara as the skin of Darkness. But does this page describes that Barbara actually got free from Zane after they jumped together in the Lake? No. It describes it’s initial freedom when Zane wrote Barbara back to life after she died. Barbara came back as the Dark Presence. That is the freedom that this page is describing. But then the poet (Zane) had sunk it back to in the end.

              In the page above, it is written as “The rock stars had stirred it from the deep sleep.” What does that mean exactly?......Did the Old gods of Asgard wrote that Barbara (Dark Presence) should be free from Zane’s cluthes while they are under the Lake? We’ll see. Let’s check the Lyrics of the Old god’s of Argard songs in the game:


              Children of the Elder God

              Warriors, torchbearers, come redeem our dreams
              Shine a light upon this night of otherworldly fiends
              Odin's might be your guide, divorce you from the sane
              Hammer's way will have its say, rise up in their name

              Oh, Memory and Thought
              Jet black and clawed

              Children of the Elder God
              Scourge of light upon the dark

              Scratching hag, you can rake your claws and gnash your crooked teeth
              You've taken slaves like ocean waves, now feel the ocean seethe
              Father Thor, bless this war, between the dark and light
              In their songs let their wrongs bring dissolution's night

              Oh, Memory and Thought
              Jet black and clawed

              Children of the Elder God
              Scourge of light upon the dark


              Well, in this first song above, It doesn’t say anything about Barbara (Dark Presence) being free from Zane’s cluthches. They mention of the “Scratching hag’s” extra curricular activities but these could simply be explained as the Old gods writing and describing events happening during Zane’s time when he wrote Barbara back as the Dark Presence. The Dark Presence has come alive during Zane’s time causing havoc in Bright Falls as is confirmed by the page above – “Taste of Power and Freedom.” The song could simply be written to describe what happened in the past, in Zane’s time and not happening exactly in the Old gods’ time. No clue from that song about Barbara (Dark Presence) getting free from Zane’s cluthes. How about the next song:


              The Poet and the Muse

              There's an old tale wrought with mystery, of Tom the Poet and his muse
              And a magic lake which gave a life to the words the poet used
              Now, the muse she was his happiness, and he rhymed about her grace
              And told her stories of treasures deep beneath the blackened waves
              Till' in the stillness of one dawn, still in its misty crown
              The muse she went down to the lake, and in the waves she drowned

              And now to see your love set free
              You will need the witch’s cabin key
              Find the lady of the light, gone mad with the night
              That's how you reshape destiny

              The poet came down to the lake to call out to his dear
              When there was no answer he was overcome with fear
              He searched in vain for his treasure lost and too soon the night would fall
              Only his own echo would wail back at his call
              And when he swore to bring back his love by stories he'd create
              Nightmares shifted in their sleep in the darkness of the lake

              And now to see your love set free
              You will need the witch’s cabin key
              Find the lady of the light, still raving in the night
              That's how you reshape destiny

              In the dead of night she came to him with darkness in her eyes
              Wearing a mourning gown, sweet words as her disguise
              He took her in without a word for he saw his grave mistake
              And vowed them both to silence deep beneath the lake
              Now, if it's real or just a dream one mystery remains
              For it is said, on moonless nights they may still haunt this place


              Well, nothing there as well. As a matter of fact, it confirms and rreinforces it by this verse:
              “And vowed them both to silence deep beneath the lake.”

              For me, there is no proof yet that Barbara (Dark Presence) was written to escape Zane’s cluthes. Not from the page above, nor the writtings and songs of the Old gods of Asgard. So, let’s move on to the next page:


              Rose Daydreams About Wake

              Rose knew she'd been gushing, but right now, she didn't care. As far as she was concerned, her brief meeting with Alan Wake was literally the high point of her life.

              She watched as he got in the car with his wife. She was pretty, confident, at ease with Wake, not like Rose. They were perfect for each other.
              She'd have given anything to be called their friend.


              For the page above, it doesn’t really need any explanation. We know where and when this happened.

              I could go on and on with the manuscript pages until the end of the game. So, I’ll cut it short here.

              My point is that, the manuscript pages are written exactly as how the game is playing out. If we follow the rule of the game, and that rule is – “The Lake has a mystical power. It makes artistic creations come true and come to life.”

              That is the rule that we can’t break in the game. So, if we apply that rule to the manuscript, the power of the Lake will make these pages come true and come to life. All of the manuscript pages will come to life.

              Now, take a look at the 1st page of the manuscript that I have pointed out above. The title of the page is “Wake Attacked by a Shadowy Murderer.” This page is Alan’s dream. Alan Wake wrote his dream in the manuscript. When the Lake manifests its mystical power to this page, it will now come true. So, the big questions now are – “Did Alan Wake dream his dream in the beginning of the game and then wrote it down in the manuscript?” Or “Did Alan dream his dream because it is written in the manuscript, the power of the Lake made it come true in the beginning of the game and so Alan dreamt it because it is written?”

              We will never know the answers to these questions because the game and the manuscript have exactly the same story. Hence, that leads me to my own theoretical conclusion that the main game is following the story of the manuscript starting from the beginning of the game when Alan had his dream up to the end where Alan wrote the “Ellipsis” (…) the last three dots at the end of the game. Thus, we were playing “Departure” all along. This is in courtesy by the power of the Lake.
              So, if I will follow this theory of mine. All the characters that we saw in the game will abide to the writings of the manuscript. Everybody, including Alan Wake himself. Now, if this theory that I follow is true, this could create multiple branching theories by itself. But we will talk about them later on. Let’s go back and discuss your points now. Shall we?

              First is this:

              Originally posted by AeddGynvael View Post
              Wrong. Part of a character's backstory being written by Alan doesn't mean they never existed -- plenty of other characters are given backstories (Rusty, Rose, Barry, Alice, Doc Nelson, The Old Gods) et cetera. The manuscript Alan wrote changed reality on numerous occasions and shaped it to Barbara's will, BUT, as it is clearly apparent, not all of the manuscript pages are meant to change reality. (That is the ultimate goal, but it needs to be achieved carefully, as "everything needs to be just right".)
              I know where you’re going with this. I understand what you mean and I agree with you. The characters’ stories, like Rusty, Rose, Barry, Alice etc, etc……Their stories may already be true and that Alan just wrote their stories in the manuscript exactly as he sees these characters in real life. What Alan saw – Alan wrote and thus, the characters' lives are not altered in the story. I know what you mean.

              But if we follow my theory above that the story of the manuscript is already coming true and that the story of the manuscript is the story that we follow from the beginning of the main game up to the end, then how would we know if the characters’ backstories are really real or just created? We will not know this, and we will never know because in the theory that I follow, the manuscript is already coming to life from the beginning of the game up to the end.

              Second is this:

              Originally posted by AeddGynvael View Post
              The Dark Presence could never be controlled, destroyed, imprisoned or subdued fully. Ever. It is a "being" much older than anything, with powers and goals very alien to humans.
              Yes, this is true. This is the nature of the Dark Presence in the “story.” But who wrote the story? Alan did. Again, if I will follow the theory above, everybody and everything is bound by the story of the manuscript. Including the Dark Presence. That is why the Dark Presence can’t get to Alan no matter how much it wants to because it is tied up to the story of the manuscript. And who wrote the manuscript? Alan did. In a way, Alan controlled the Dark Presence’s behavior even before it started harming him. – This statement is a branching theory by itself. “If everything and everyone is bound by the manuscript, is Alan Wake the sole person responsible to all of these events happening?”

              Last of all is this:

              Originally posted by AeddGynvael View Post
              Not all pages of the manuscript aim to change reality (those that do, however, do it relentlessly and uncompromisingly) - that was just a "record" of sorts.
              Again if I will follow the theory I’ve been following above, that the manuscript is already coming true, then reality has already been changed by the manuscript from the beginning of the game.

              Now, going back to my original question. Right from the very beginning of this post. - “How on earth did Barbara (Dark Presence) escaped Zane and then be at the diner in the beginning of the game when she is also bound by this reality of the page coming true?”

              I started this thread not to question if Zane is real or not real. I question Zane’s existence in the story if his character is real or created. “Are the events that happened in Zane’s life real before Alan came to Bright Falls?” So on and so forth. This thread also questions Alan’s “Sanity” in many ways.

              That’s about it for now.

              There is one more thing that I would like to mention. I just have this crazy feeling (call it “Gut Instinct.”) I can’t help to think that you, my friend, is from the inside. You know, from the source. One of Remedy’s crew.

              You never flinched! You never doubted your theories and your answers. You are always spot on with your points as if you are holding Remedy’s entire script for the game and the franchise right in front of your face or your lap while you are answering to this post.

              I myself have doubts about my theories. I have to play the main game and the DLC’s 3 times. I went around the “interwebs” for the last 2 months in search of the Light that could illuminate me from the darkness that surrounds me. During that search, I have never, again NEVER encountered anyone as “sure” as you are about your answers and your theories. Dude, you are freakishly correct in everyway. So freakishly correct and spot on that you’re freaking me out. Everything that I have said and pointed out here and to other threads as well are all theories only. But you, my friend, yours are different. Your points have real meaning as if you already know the answers.

              I know you will not admit to this. I know that you will definitely deny any involvement with Remedy. But for the record, if you are one of them, I would like to say I am deeply honored! If you are not, then I am still equally honored – Deeply honored as well! Because you, my friend, have one hell of a mind job!

              Although your theory is more polished now, I still believe it is flawed when I follow my own theory. That, my friend, is just my own humble opinion.

              (Please pardon my Wall of Text folks.)
              Last edited by Jill; 03-06-2012, 05:35 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

                Let me make it perfectly clear that I don't necessarily disagree with your theory - it is just another way to look at the events - not to mention nothing gives me more pleasure than exchanging opinions about different standpoints of the same issue on an intellectual level, especially if it's about a book or game or any other medium of entertainment that is engrossing and well-crafted enough to have multiple interpretations.
                However, while I admire your pursuit to interpret everything as best as you can, I think you've made a few very obvious mistakes that you will no doubt notice quickly:

                Let's, again, briefly address this by points:

                1. The dream, ferry ride, diner section and the Diver's Isle section all happened BEFORE Jagger took Alice. How could the entirety of the game be just the "Departure" manuscript when Alan did not start writing until after Barbara took his love?

                2.
                Now, for the above page, it is not specifically stated when this scene happened. But that doesn’t mean we can’t speculate. Right?
                Well, it happened when Wake arrived in Bright Falls, as stated by one other page, paraphrasing here: "For a long time, The Dark Presence had been sleeping - too weak to properly exist, yet too evocative to fade away. When it sensed the writer on the ferry, it opened its eyes." We do know when it happened.

                3.
                In the page above, it is written as “The rock stars had stirred it from the deep sleep.” What does that mean exactly?......Did the Old gods of Asgard wrote that Barbara (Dark Presence) should be free from Zane’s cluthes while they are under the Lake?
                No; The Old Gods had "stirred" it from its sleep in the sense that their music had power, energy, a message; it was a faint hope for The Dark Presence to be free again; however, in the end, Tor and Odin's music simply wasn't as powerful as Zane's (or later, Alan's) writing, therefore, The Dark Presence could NOT twist it and use it to regain its power.

                4.
                For me, there is no proof yet that Barbara (Dark Presence) was written to escape Zane’s cluthes
                No; no, she wasn't, indeed. It's not that it was written, so it happened, it is that Jagger was too powerful for Zane to fully "bind".
                The song was written by the Old Gods as a memo, serving anyone, who would have to fight The Dark Presence in the future; it tells the story of Zane and Barbara and Tom's mistake, and most importantly, Cynthia.
                Furthermore, if we follow your theory that anything and everything that happened needs to be written in the manuscript, then this is a direct contradiction - nowhere was it stated that Barbara escaped Zane or anything similar, so I think we can safely assume that NOT everything written in the manuscript happened and not everything that has happened was part of the manuscript.

                5.
                Well, in this first song above, It doesn’t say anything about Barbara (Dark Presence) being free from Zane’s cluthches.
                Again, it was not meant to. This song is yet another "memo", if we can call it such - this is the Old Gods putting their fighting the Taken during Zane's time in song (which they definitely did -- they have faced Taken before.)
                Furthermore, "Oh, Memory and Thought" is capitalized. Not a coincidence -- if you remember, Odin talked about Jagger taking his two Ravens. Well, he DID, in fact, have two ravens, which Jagger took -- they became the source of the Taken birds. This is yet another detail the song is meant to subtly reference.

                6. After writing for Jagger for a week, Alan wrote his escape into the story. That again brings us to the conclusion that everything that happened in the game CANNOT have been part of the manuscript, as there are events that happened when Alan was not in the cabin, writing. See point 1 again.

                7. Alan may have written "Departure", but he definitely did not write The Dark Presence -- he used her/it as a character, just like he did with Zane, except with Thomas, it was by his own will and with Barbara, he was forced to. He didn't really "control" Jagger, because a big, big chunk of what he wrote is what she wanted him to. You can't call that "control".

                8. A few more things that I feel need mentioning:

                - The Dark Presence is not limited to Cauldron Lake. Nightingale's investigation is a clear statement of that.

                - Clay Steward and Alan have shared dreams on multiple occasions (can be verified in the Alan Wake Files). This is clearly reinforces the point that The Dark Presence has influence outside of the confines of the lake and Bright Falls.

                - The Old Gods and Cynthia gave it their best to preserve Zane's legacy, because they were very aware of the horrors that the lake hides. Odin and Tor gave anyone fighting the Dark Presence clues on how and why it was woken up the last time and how to fight it; Cynthia gave them the TOOLS to fight it.



                Now, let us get back to Zane.
                The loss he suffered when Barbara died not only left a huge emotional scar - it also made him very susceptible to Hartman's ways. He disrupted the balance, paid the price and tried to fix everything - at a very, very steep price - he lost his love AGAIN, in a way, this time, by his own hands. He doomed himself to eternally wander The Dark Place.
                Would he WANT to be alive? Maybe that is the question we need to consider. Even if Alan finds a way out of The Dark Place and Zane can also use it, what is there for him? He has nothing, and the only people, who will remember him would be Tor, Odin an Cynthia. Maybe he is better off being where he is now, no?


                In the end - I'm very grateful for your kind words. I very much wish I was a part of Remedy -- just exchanging ideas with great minds like Sam Lake and Mikko Rautalahti would be a lifetime experience (especially for me, considering I'm a psychologist by profession and a writer by hobby), but I unfortunately have no such honour.

                Looking forward to continuing the exchange of ideas.
                "There's an old tale wrought with the mystery of Tom the Poet and his Muse and a magic lake, which gave a life to the words the Poet used.."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

                  Oh man! I’m taking a quick weekend trip. Man!…….I can’t wait to be back. In the mean time, I’ll bring my digital device and ponder on your ideas while I am away. I hope I could get a “signal.” But I’ll be back on Monday

                  Cheers!

                  By the way, I still think you are connected to Remedy, it’s that gut instinct.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

                    Originally posted by Jill View Post
                    Wake Attacked by a Shadowy Murderer

                    The man turned to face me. His face was covered in shadows. It was hard to make him out in the darkness of the forest that surrounded us, but the axe he lifted was plain to see. It glistened with the blood of his victim.
                    He grinned madly. The shadows were alive, distorting his features.
                    It was a scene from a nightmare, but I was awake.


                    This is the second manuscript page that Alan found in the game. The first on is the Title page. For me, this page describes the scene where Clay Steward got axed by the Taken hitchhiker after helping Alan Wake.
                    That's actually foreshadowing for the run-in with Stucky at the logging site -- we're establishing that the pages can have a prophetic quality like that right off the bat. (That's why we give the player that page automatically, so we can be 100% sure that they get that page.) It doesn't refer to Wake's dream.

                    Well, in this first song above, It doesn’t say anything about Barbara (Dark Presence) being free from Zane’s cluthches.
                    The Old Gods released many albums; all you hear in the game is two songs. There's more; you shouldn't assume that only the ones you hear matter. The point is that their music made the Dark Presence stir; it's not too relevant to figure out what lyric -- or awesome guitar solo, maybe, those guy were rocking pretty hard -- specifically made it happen. =)

                    There is one more thing that I would like to mention. I just have this crazy feeling (call it “Gut Instinct.”) I can’t help to think that you, my friend, is from the inside. You know, from the source. One of Remedy’s crew.

                    You never flinched! You never doubted your theories and your answers. You are always spot on with your points as if you are holding Remedy’s entire script for the game and the franchise right in front of your face or your lap while you are answering to this post.
                    Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with "no" on that one. He just pays a lot of attention to what's in the game, that's all -- and he's been on our forum for a good while now and been a part of a lot of discussions, which probably helps. I really enjoy AeddGynvael's posts, because he really thinks about this stuff a lot, but the things he says are just theories -- very good and consistent theories, I would like to stress! But just because he's consistent and confident, that doesn't mean you should assume he must be right or has access to secrets. He's just smart and methodical. =)
                    Story Team Manager at Remedy. Like the occasional stupid remark? Follow me on Twitter: @MikkiRMD

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

                      What if it's not Zane at all? Pretty sure that point has been covered, but do not have time to read every thing at the moment, just always like to say that in a Zane discussion.
                      I like to bring a little irony to a firefight-Resistance member from Half-Life 2

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

                        Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                        That's actually foreshadowing for the run-in with Stucky at the logging site -- we're establishing that the pages can have a prophetic quality like that right off the bat. (That's why we give the player that page automatically, so we can be 100% sure that they get that page.) It doesn't refer to Wake's dream.



                        The Old Gods released many albums; all you hear in the game is two songs. There's more; you shouldn't assume that only the ones you hear matter. The point is that their music made the Dark Presence stir; it's not too relevant to figure out what lyric -- or awesome guitar solo, maybe, those guy were rocking pretty hard -- specifically made it happen. =)



                        Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with "no" on that one. He just pays a lot of attention to what's in the game, that's all -- and he's been on our forum for a good while now and been a part of a lot of discussions, which probably helps. I really enjoy AeddGynvael's posts, because he really thinks about this stuff a lot, but the things he says are just theories -- very good and consistent theories, I would like to stress! But just because he's consistent and confident, that doesn't mean you should assume he must be right or has access to secrets. He's just smart and methodical. =)

                        Hey Mikki, glad to have you on this thread. Thanks for dropping in. I have a couple of things for you in response to your last post here.

                        First is about this:

                        Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                        That's actually foreshadowing for the run-in with Stucky at the logging site -- we're establishing that the pages can have a prophetic quality like that right off the bat. (That's why we give the player that page automatically, so we can be 100% sure that they get that page.) It doesn't refer to Wake's dream.

                        Thanks Mikki for clarifying this. You know, if you would allow me please, I would really like to express what I have experienced in my first run of the game and why I made my conclusion as to what the 2nd page of the manuscript was about for me.

                        When Alan picked-up the first 2 pages of the manuscript in the game, and then right after reading them, I felt like one of those WTF moments in the game, you know. There were many of these moments in the game and this is just one of them. I remember I was stunned just as Alan was. I have to stop for a moment and then re-read them again for the second time. Right at this moment, I made a “guess” work and connected the page to the hitchhiker “Taken” in the beginning of the game.

                        You see, I did that because during the Alan’s nightmare/dream playthrough in the beginning of the game, I watched this scene twice in a row where the hitchhiker “Taken” axed Clay Stewart. I stopped and then re-watched it again for the 2nd time before moving on because I thought at this point in the game; the hitchhiker was going to play a bigger role throughout the entire game. I wanted to see who or what he looked like.

                        The image of that scene stuck with me that when Alan picked-up those first 2 pages and read it, I made that connection to the hitchhiker “Taken” right away. I have even pondered a bit on the last line of the page that said “It was a scene from a nightmare, but I was awake.” I said to myself – “It make sense for that scene with the hitchhiker “Taken.” Alan was indeed having a nightmare there, and as I was playing that stage, it felt like it was real. Like Alan was “awake.” Like Alan was stating it metaphorically.

                        After all, I thought, when you are dreaming yourself inside your dream, it fells like you are always awake in your dream. You don’t think that you are just a dream in your own dream. You actually think and feel that you are real and awake inside your own dream. Does that make sense?

                        Anyway, when the first run-in with “Stucky” scene rolled in later on, the page didn’t ring a bell anymore. And since then, I have always associated that page with the hitchhiker-Clay Steward scene in Alan’s dream rather than the “Stucky” scene.

                        But now that you have mentioned the page as actually a foreshadowing for the “Stucky” scene, I guess I stand corrected. I have one concern with the “Stucky” scene though. Stucky had his back facing Alan at the beginning of this cut-scene. Then, he did not really turn and face Alan. He just turned his face sideward and gave Alan a side-view of his face while introducing himself as “Carl Stucky.” You could actually see Alan’s blurry silhouette behind Stucky’s headshot while Stucky is doing this side-view position to Alan. Then Stucky scrammed and ran out of there never facing Alan at all.

                        Alan should have written on this manuscript page something like – “The man turned to side-view me” or maybe “The man side-viewed me” or something………..(just kidding!!!) I’m playing ya! I’m just trying to make you laugh, Mikki. Peace dude, Peace!

                        Anyway, I know why Alan wrote it that way. He wants it to be dramatic and prophetic. Kind of “metaphoric” as well if you think about it.

                        Second is about this:

                        Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                        The Old Gods released many albums; all you hear in the game is two songs. There's more; you shouldn't assume that only the ones you hear matter. The point is that their music made the Dark Presence stir; it's not too relevant to figure out what lyric -- or awesome guitar solo, maybe, those guy were rocking pretty hard -- specifically made it happen. =)

                        I knew somebody is going to point this out here sooner or later. I didn’t expect it would be coming from you, Mikki. This has been on my radar as well. Kind of like a “hindsight.” I agree with you on this one, but I also disagree on the same point. I can’t and I won’t make any conclusion about the Alan Wake game based on just an assumption. Not even if the assumption is coming from you, Mikki.

                        Yes, we can say that the Old gods have many albums and many songs that have not yet been revealed in the game. But we can’t assume either that these songs that haven’t been revealed yet could release Barbara from Zane’s clutches.

                        What I am really trying to say here Mikki, is that we are trying to solve a mystery here. A very complex mystery that you have created. And I myself (I am speaking just for myself,) I can’t make any significant conclusion based on just an assumption. Especially if that assumption is coming from you, one of the creators of the game.

                        I am actually smiling as I write this because I find it really amusing. You always lead us to the truth, Mikki. I am always impressed by that gesture. A lot of the Remedy fans and followers in this forum actually liked what you and all the other Remedy crew are doing here in this forum and in your other interactive sites. Please Mikki; lead us back to the truth and not just an assumption.

                        One more thing, when you said:


                        Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                        The point is that their music made the Dark Presence stir; it's not too relevant to figure out what lyric -- or awesome guitar solo, maybe, those guy were rocking pretty hard -- specifically made it happen. =)

                        What do you mean by – “specifically made it happen?”

                        Do you mean “the music made the Dark Presence stir?” or do you mean “Barbara escaping Zane’s clutches?”

                        What does “Stirring the Dark Presence” mean anyway? You see Mikki, it is vague for me. As I have understood, there are 2 entities in the game. We have the Dark Presence. And then we have Barbara Jagger, the face of Darkness. If we take out Barbara, the Dark Presence would still exist. That means Barbara is more of a vessel only, a “skin” to put it correctly. If Barbara does not exist, the Dark Presence still exist. So, if we apply what Alan wrote in the manuscript – “the rock stars have stirred the Dark Presence from deep sleep” – It could mean that they stirred the Dark Presence’s “persona” itself and not it’s face or skin which is Barbara.

                        If we pretend for a second that Barbara doesn’t exist and the Old gods would rock their songs out right now, would they still have stirred the Dark Presence? Of course they would! Barbara or no Barbara, the Dark Presence still exist and would get stirred regardless. Am I right?

                        So, when Alan wrote – ““the rock stars have stirred the Dark Presence from deep sleep” – it expresses a vague meaning. Which is what I am trying to investigate in with this thread.

                        I am asking other people's thoughts about the credibility of Thomas Zane’s and Alan’s writings. It may or would answer who is really responsible for all of this.

                        And lastly:

                        Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                        Yeah, I'm gonna have to go with "no" on that one. He just pays a lot of attention to what's in the game, that's all -- and he's been on our forum for a good while now and been a part of a lot of discussions, which probably helps. I really enjoy AeddGynvael's posts, because he really thinks about this stuff a lot, but the things he says are just theories -- very good and consistent theories, I would like to stress! But just because he's consistent and confident, that doesn't mean you should assume he must be right or has access to secrets. He's just smart and methodical. =)

                        Thanks for clarifying this, Mikki. It’s just a gut feeling, you know. “Instinctive!” And you were right about Aeddgynvael being smart and methodical. There is only one thing I would like to say against that point, though. He shouldn’t say the word “WRONG” to other people if he himself doesn’t have the correct answers either. He said that to me above on his post # 6. For me, I think that is “Unsmartly.”

                        Anyway, Thanks for your input, Mikki. I am now formulating my answers to Aeddgynvael’s last post. Talk to you later.
                        Last edited by Jill; 03-06-2012, 06:57 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

                          Originally posted by Jill View Post
                          Yes, we can say that the Old gods have many albums and many songs that have not yet been revealed in the game. But we can’t assume either that these songs that haven’t been revealed yet could release Barbara from Zane’s clutches.
                          Well, I think you can, since it's something we refer to at several points in the game. If you want to assume that it must involve one of the two songs you hear in the game, you can also do that, but that seems like a kind of an arbitrary choice to me. Throughout the game, there's plenty of things we don't show, we just hint at them.


                          What do you mean by – “specifically made it happen?”

                          Do you mean “the music made the Dark Presence stir?” or do you mean “Barbara escaping Zane’s clutches?”
                          I mean that it's not relevant what precisely it is about the Old Gods' songs that got things going with the Dark Presence again. It's not really an important detail someone has to know in order to understand the story.

                          What does “Stirring the Dark Presence” mean anyway? You see Mikki, it is vague for me.
                          Well, what can I say? That's not really accidental. =) We haven't wanted to get too specific about that.

                          If we pretend for a second that Barbara doesn’t exist and the Old gods would rock their songs out right now, would they still have stirred the Dark Presence? Of course they would! Barbara or no Barbara, the Dark Presence still exist and would get stirred regardless. Am I right?
                          I don't want to speculate about this sort of thing too much, but yeah, maybe. The thing is, Zane brought the Dark Presence up in the first place (in Barbara's skin). If he hadn't done that, could the Andersons have made it stir? Maybe, but I wouldn't want to say that for sure.
                          Story Team Manager at Remedy. Like the occasional stupid remark? Follow me on Twitter: @MikkiRMD

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

                            Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                            Well, what can I say? That's not really accidental. =) We haven't wanted to get too specific about that.

                            I knew you were going to say something to that effect. – “I can’t disclose anything………”

                            I guess for now, I will treat this as a “Gray Area” of the game. An “unexplained mystery” inside an existing unexplained mystery.

                            Thanks anyway, Mikki. Well, I have to get back to formulating my response to Aeddgynvael’s last post. Talk to you later.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Thomas Zane: Dead or Alive? (Spoiler Alert!)

                              Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                              I mean that it's not relevant what precisely it is about the Old Gods' songs that got things going with the Dark Presence again. It's not really an important detail someone has to know in order to understand the story.

                              I understand the story, Mikki. That is why it is important for me to know because I do understand the story.

                              But I know I won’t get any straight answer from you. And I respect that. That is why we are all out here trying to figure out what is going on with the game. (I have a feeling that this is like a “Déjà vu” conversation.) It’s like every time I have a conversation with you about the game, I end up saying this.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X