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[SPOILERS] Something I don't understand about Will. Plot hole?

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  • [SPOILERS] Something I don't understand about Will. Plot hole?

    As far as I understand the game, it supports the fact that what happened cannot be undone, even by time travel.

    That's what Paul thinks, and like he saw the End of Time, he wants to create the lifeboat to fix it later.
    That's what Beth thinks too, but she says during story she will die trying to change things even if she knows she can't do anything.
    That's not what Jack thinks, he don't understand the logic of it even after the end.

    Then... here comes the Will's case.
    William thinks like Paul and Beth: that the past cannot be changed, he tries to explain it all the time to Jack. That's also why he want to go in the future when Jack came from to use the countermeasure, because they can't fix it in the "present", as it is not fixed in the future.

    Okay, but there is a problem because of this. A huge one. If William thinks this and acts like this, then he SHOULD be on Paul side or want to go in an other point in time.
    Paul saw the End of Time for 2020 (or 2021), then for Will it would means that the point in time they should go is 2020/2021 because fracture couldn't be fixed before, or the only plan that might work is trying to fix the fracture "after" (if it make any sens) the End of Time exactly like Paul wants.

    In the game the fracture is coming and fixed in 2016, something Paul didn't expected; which means the End of Time will still occurs in 2020/2021, not because of Paul (his 2016 fracture is fixed), but probably because of Hatch (who wants to create his own world it seems) or Jack (who wants to save Beth).
    So like I said, according to Will's logic, then he definitely should travel at the End of Time Paul's saw or... later. Not before.

    That something William couldn't miss, especially during 17 years... so to me it looks like an inconsistency. Or am I wrong somewhere?

  • #2
    Very good insight here. Will has a deeper understanding of time than Paul does and he disagreed with Paul's methods (probably because future Paul had tried to shoot him years earlier). I think we will have to wait for a sequel before we get definite answers to this question but I invite everyone here to post their views/thoughts.

    if you want to learn more about Will's background or the events of Paul'a trip to the end of time I recommend reading Zero State by Cam Rogers

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    • #3
      [I mention some pretty big spoilers. If you have not played the game, please skip my response.]

      I think there's a little bit of guilt that factors into their motivations. For Serene, he's seen the End of Time and his experiences in that space scarred him. When he travelled back in time, he tried to change the past, and he tries to save someone's life only to be the result of their death. So he believes that time is absolutely linear. There's also something in his experiences which caused him to shut down in a way, he's a lot colder to Jack and Will right from the start at the library. So he's unwavering from his goal, unable or really unwilling to take any risks for the sake of The Lifeboat Protocol. And we see this in his personal logs, where he states “I’ve always been devoted to my mission . Never deterred from the goal, no matter what the sacrifice."

      For Will, everything which happens in the game is essentially his fault. He's the one that built the first time machine, plans which Project Promenade recreated later, leading to the destabilisation of the Meyer-Joyce field. He then created the CFR and that was great in a lot of ways, but also was incredibly destructive in others. He heavily blames himself for the fractures and is desperate to fix his mistakes, so much so that he tells Serene while a gun is being held to his head "We can't just let this happen. I'll never stop trying.". Add onto that, that he was talking to Beth Wilder which led him to create the countermeasure and she absolutely believed there was a way. In the email, "Where Are You?", between Will and Beth, Will states "I spent years trying to convince myself that you were wrong all this time and that I built the countermeasure for nothing. I tried to move on, pick up the pieces, but now I have seen the proof."

      So going into the game there's different viewpoints and motivations.

      As for the End of Time taking place at a later point, I think that's definitely true! But all of the data that Monarch was collecting, and the information that Amaral was increasing getting more concerned about pointed at the stutters becoming more regular, indicating that the Meyer-Joyce field was becoming increasingly more unstable. Everything told them now that time would freeze in October 2016. And it would have done... but it never actually does because it was always going to be fixed at the swimming pool. I think it's kind of like a red herring where the threat was absolutely real but the End of Time that drove a lot of the character's motivations didn't happen then.

      I really like the game because it had both characters who believe that time is absolutely linear and characters that believe that it is possible to change the past. And I think the title sticks with the former but there's movement in changing events if something isn't witnessed (such as with the library).

      I agree with Maniac that it's definitely going into sequel territory about the cause of the later fracture. It's kind of interesting how the game is left with Jack and Serene almost switching places in a way. It feels like Hatch definitely has something in mind there.

      (Hopefully the post is clear. I'm writing this at 6:30am and also slightly ill so there may be a slight bit of confusion or rambling. Also time travel gets pretty complicated to talk about. )

      Also great post Cegir! I've always loved this kind of discussions. And welcome to the forums! ^_^
      The Sudden Stop - Remedy Fansite

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      • #4
        Thanks for the answers!

        I understand Jaden that there are different viewpoints and motivations, but William is a true scientist and that's the problem here.
        He can have a different opinion than Paul, like Beth for example, but he shouldn't be able to ignore that trying to fixing it the way he does with Jack cannot work.
        For a consistent William with everything he said, everything he done and the way the game tells us he thinks, it is impossible that he could ignore that!

        I mean, just like you quoted, Will said: "I spent years trying to convince myself that you were wrong all this time and that I built the countermeasure for nothing. I tried to move on, pick up the pieces, but now I have seen the proof."
        Which is a scientific behavior: he saw the proof, so he can't try to convince himself anymore. On a logic basis and for a guy like him, going in the future (when Jack came from) doesn't make more sense than trying to fix the fracture in the present for the reasons explained in the first post.

        The thing is he's, according to the game, not like Beth at all. Jack acts with guts, whereas William acts with pure logic especially when it's a matter of time. Exactly like you said, he feels guilty; that why at the end when Jack proposed some solutions, he refused categorically, saying the risk to create another disaster is way too high.

        As players, we know the Paul's fracture created another End of Time William and Jack fixed before it happened, that's why Paul was able to go in the 2020/21 one.
        We also know that Paul didn't knew the End of Time he saw wasn't due to his own fracture.
        We can even be pretty sure that William never knew the exact date of the End of Time, he doesn't know if it was supposed to be in 2016, 2020, 2056 or 104. But that's not an important information for him, has he would have immediately understand it couldn't work.

        I'm pretty sure it's something writers of the game missed. ^_^

        A way it could have been treated:
        - At the end, when Jack save William, Will tell his brother nothing could be made because Paul and Beth already seen the End of Time. So the countermeasure will not work.
        - Jack saying the End of Time Paul&Beth saw is for 2020/2021 but according to Monarch another one will happen in 2016
        - Like that, he could convince William to go in the near future to at least fix this one. Telling him they have no choice because according to time they already done it. He could even joke on the "The time is an egg, you know."
        - William would of course be ok, and after the first fractured is fixed decide to work on a project to fix the 2020/21 one after it occurs, just like Paul wanted to do... but with his own point of view, and not Hatch one.

        The only way I see for them to repair this mistake is pretending William acted like that to give some hope to his brother, because Jack desperately don't know how time works. And like William blame himself for everything, he want to do fix it alone and don't want to involve other people considering all deaths happened because of first fracture, and certainly don't want to risk his brother's life again.

        PS : "(Hopefully the post is clear. I'm writing this at 6:30am and also slightly ill so there may be a slight bit of confusion or rambling. Also time travel gets pretty complicated to talk about. )"
        I'm not a native english speaker (I'm french), so it doesn't matter as I'm not able to see the difference between a confuse post or a correct english one. :')

        Comment


        • #5
          Nah, we didn't miss anything -- or, at least, we didn't miss this one. =) (We may have missed something else. It's possible! But to the best of my knowledge, our logic in these things is pretty sound.)

          You're confusing what we know with what Will knows. Yeah, Serene has seen the end of time, but Will hasn't. He doesn't even know that Serene has seen it -- throughout the whole experience, he resists the temptation to learn about the future. He even refuses to listen to Beth when she tries to tell him about it (although she does force him to hear a few things). So he doesn't know that the End of Time is going to happen. Will knows about the Fracture -- but not about the End of Time. (When he talks about having seen the proof, he's talking about the Fracture -- not the End of Time.)

          Remember, Will knows very little about what we see throughout the game -- as far as he's concerned, on October 9 he goes to the Riverport University, the Fracture occurs, he almost gets killed in the library collapse (but Jack saves him), Jack gives him the countermeasure, they go forward in time a little bit, and they fix the Fracture. He knows nothing about Serene's plans, he's never heard about the Lifeboat. Nobody ever tells him that in 2021, End of Time is looming.

          Even if Will had known that time was ending in 2021, it wouldn't really change things that drastically, as far as his motivations go. It would mean that the Fracture event in 2016 obviously does not lead to the End of Time, and thus could be reversed, and that would be a worthwhile goal, because that would a) keep the increasingly violent stutters from causing untold damage and deaths, and b) give people five more years to figure out how to deal with it. Will would still want to stop the Fracture. But he didn't know, so the point is moot.

          Does Will find out about what Paul had seen later, in the aftermath of the events of this game? Probably! But that's after he's already made his choices about fixing the Fracture in 2016.
          Story Team Manager at Remedy. Like the occasional stupid remark? Follow me on Twitter: @MikkiRMD

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          • #6
            Ah this indeed clears up some confusion for me as reading above it is becoming clear that there are possibly two time fracture events. One that is caused by Paul but fixed by Will and Jack in 2016. And there is another fracture that we dont know when happened but lead to End of Time in 2021 that was witnessed by Paul and Beth. Paul obviously thought that the End of Time in 2021 was caused by his fracture which is obviously not the case. This actually makes me very happy. I absolutely loved Quantum Break and this looks to me opens up the possibility of a sequel in near future for the game. We also know that Paul vanised at the end of the Boss fight. Probably because he ended up becoming a full fledged Shifter and Shifter can only exist in time stutters and once Will fixed the fracture, the stutters stopped so Paul coul not exist in normal flow of time, he became invisible. The only thing that now confuses me is Beth. If she got killed trying to fix the first fracture event with the help of Jack, how did she exist after the second fracture event and survive all the way up to 2021 End of Time ? Unless she is a shifter too and can exist in multiple instances spread across different time ?!

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            • #7
              Beth was travelling through time. From her perspective, she was at the End of Time more than a decade before her death. (She goes from 2016 to the End of Time, and then to 1999, and then she dies in 2010.)
              Story Team Manager at Remedy. Like the occasional stupid remark? Follow me on Twitter: @MikkiRMD

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                Beth was travelling through time. From her perspective, she was at the End of Time more than a decade before her death. (She goes from 2016 to the End of Time, and then to 1999, and then she dies in 2010.)
                Mikki answered a plot question!!! Sweet! Would you mind answering who is Artemis?

                Was it just an idea, or story arc that had to be ommited from the final game?
                Album uploaded by Napper64. Quantum Break

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                • #9
                  It's probably better if I don't, sorry. I don't mind clarifying things that are already clearly part of the story we told, but things that we've deliberately set up as mysteries should probably stay that way. =)
                  Story Team Manager at Remedy. Like the occasional stupid remark? Follow me on Twitter: @MikkiRMD

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                    It's probably better if I don't, sorry. I don't mind clarifying things that are already clearly part of the story we told, but things that we've deliberately set up as mysteries should probably stay that way. =)
                    #allconnected #whoisthemeatman
                    The Sudden Stop - Remedy Fansite

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                      It's probably better if I don't, sorry. I don't mind clarifying things that are already clearly part of the story we told, but things that we've deliberately set up as mysteries should probably stay that way. =)
                      No problem at all. That's a better answer anyway. Gives a little bit of hope that we might see more quantum break in the future. Thanks.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by MikkiRMD View Post
                        Beth was travelling through time. From her perspective, she was at the End of Time more than a decade before her death. (She goes from 2016 to the End of Time, and then to 1999, and then she dies in 2010.)
                        Thanks very much for your response Mikki. I understand that Beth lost 5 years from 2016 to 2021 and another 11 years from 1999 to 2010 before she dies. So a total of 17 years she lost before she eventually succumbed to Paul in her fight to retain the CFR. But now it is confusing even more to me. If Beth died in 2010, how was she helping Jack in 2016 and then saw end of Time in 2021. Sorry for me time is still a linear flow of chronon particles. Please help me out Mikki.

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                        • #13
                          The Beth in 2016 is the younger Beth

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GameBunny77 View Post

                            Thanks very much for your response Mikki. I understand that Beth lost 5 years from 2016 to 2021 and another 11 years from 1999 to 2010 before she dies. So a total of 17 years she lost before she eventually succumbed to Paul in her fight to retain the CFR. But now it is confusing even more to me. If Beth died in 2010, how was she helping Jack in 2016 and then saw end of Time in 2021. Sorry for me time is still a linear flow of chronon particles. Please help me out Mikki.
                            Well... because of time travel.

                            (SPOILERS AHEAD, once again.)

                            Look at this from Beth's perspective. Things happen roughly in this order:
                            • She's born. (I don't remember the exact year off the top of my head, doesn't matter.)
                            • When she's a young girl, she meets her older self, who gives her the mission that defines her life from this point on.
                            • She eventually joins Monarch Solutions and works as a security agent. In 2016, she meets Jack at the Riverport University campus and starts helping him.
                            • After some adventures on Bradbury Island, kidnapping Dr. Amaral and all that, they get the time machine working. She enters the time machine, but, because of Dr. Amaral's sneaky actions, travels INTO THE FUTURE. She sees the End of Time.
                            • At the End of Time, IN THE FUTURE, she runs into Paul Serene, who escapes INTO THE PAST, into 1999. Beth follows him.
                            • IN THE PAST, in 1999, she talks to William, convinces him that he needs to build the countermeasure, and then settles down to wait until it's finished. She also meets her younger self and gives her the mission -- so she's now reliving that childhood encounter, but as the older version of herself.
                            • In 2010, still IN THE PAST (but not quite as far in the past as before, since 11 years have passed) the countermeasure is finished, and she goes to retrieve it, but she runs into Paul Serene, who kills her. So the Beth in 2010 is 11 years older than the Beth Jack met in 2016 -- again, because she has travelled through time.

                            If that's still unclear to you, think of it like this: if I come to your house right now, in 2016, and bring you a delicious cake, and then travel through time to 2010, and get hit by a car and die, that doesn't kill the version of me that brings you the cake, because the cake-carrying version of me has not yet travelled into the past and been hit by a car.

                            We can have our cake party and have a good time, and from my perspective, I'll die after that. From the world's perspective, I (Mikki #1) go about my business normally throughout my life, except in 2010 another me (Mikki #2) appears, and gets hit by a car and dies, and then in 2016 the original me (Mikki #1) suddenly disappears after an awesome cake party. (This is because I travel to 2010 and become Mikki #2, and promptly die.)
                            Last edited by MikkiRMD; 10-22-2016, 03:23 PM.
                            Story Team Manager at Remedy. Like the occasional stupid remark? Follow me on Twitter: @MikkiRMD

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                            • #15
                              Excellent explanation Mikki. Now it is indeed clear to me. Thanks very very much for the great explanantion .

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